Drop support for set-valued cue positions?

English General
1

Hi.

Up to mAirList 2.1.39, you were able to click the cue position marker in the PFL dialog, and a window would open where you were able to manage multiple alternative positions for that kind of cue marker.

Starting with mAirList 2.1.40, the PFL dialog has been redesigned, and the Ramp 2, Ramp 3, Hook In, Hook Fade and Hook Out markers have been introduced. At the moment, it is not possible anymore to manage these list of alternative cue positions. However, the internal code still supports it, only the GUI does not at the moment.

Has anybody used this feature and would like to see it re-introduced in the new PFL dialog? Or can I just drop support for it completely?

Torben

2

Yes, Torben, I make a a lot of use of the multiple cue in/ramp points. Before I saw your posting, I was about to include it in a list of several bugs I have found in 2.1.40. There are a LOT of tracks I have tagged with multiple cue in/ramp points, and for very good reasons, so I DO NEED that feature—PLEASE put it back!

While on the subject of the PFL/tagging dialog, some more comments. These all apply to the File Tagger in 2.1.40 (I haven’t yet tried the PFL player in the main mAirList program).

  1. The new PFL/tagging cue points dialog is MORE confusing to use, because I can’t see ALL the cue point values any more, I can only view ONE value at a time, so I have no idea which points I have already set unless I ‘expand’ every cue point ‘heading’ in turn to check it. Can you at least allow me to ‘open’ ALL the cue point types instead of just one?

  2. Why are there now three Ramp points, and how are they supposed to be used? How do these differ from the previous method of using multiple selectable Ramp points?

  3. Having every cue point in a different colour is confusing as well. Why not make all of them grey and just make the ‘active/selected’ one a (single!) different colour, similar to a Browser? (This would allow you to have all the cue points ‘open’ while still making it obvious which one is ‘active/selected:’ see point 1 above.)

  4. The TEST button does not work if the File Tagging PFL player is in PAUSE. I’m sure (?) the TEST button used to work even if the File Tagging PFL player was in PAUSE, or is my memory faulty? :wink:

  5. The TEST button still has the ‘loop’ fault, i.e. clicking TEST plays a ‘stutter loop’ instead of just PLAYing from the cue point. Didn’t you say that bug would be fixed in 2.1.40? ;D This bug makes it almost impossible to tag files.

I have only just had time to try out 2.1.40 properly, so I will put my other problems/questions into a separate posting.

BFN
CAD

3

Well, ok.

1) The new PFL/tagging cue points dialog is MORE confusing to use, because I can't see ALL the cue point values any more, I can only view ONE value at a time, so I have no idea which points I have already set unless I 'expand' every cue point 'heading' in turn to check it. Can you at least allow me to 'open' ALL the cue point types instead of just one?

Initially, all categories in which at least one cue point is set are expanded. When you collapse a category in which a marker is set, it is marked with an asterisk.

I can add an “initially expand all categories” option if you like.

2) Why are there now three Ramp points, and how are they supposed to be used? How do these differ from the previous method of using multiple selectable Ramp points?

The previous method has not been very user friendly. People find it more intuitively to set three points “ramp 1”, “ramp 2”, and “ramp 3” (which should suffice for most songs) than maintaing a list of points, one of which is the active one.

3) Having every cue point in a different colour is confusing as well. Why not make all of them grey and just make the 'active/selected' one a (single!) different colour, similar to a Browser? (This would allow you to have all the cue points 'open' while still making it obvious which one is 'active/selected:' see point 1 above.)

I believe that, once you get used to them, the colors will help you to identify which cue point you’re editing. Some sort of extra visual feedback. However, I see that this might be a little to “colorful” for some of you, so I will make this optional in the next version.

4) The TEST button does not work if the File Tagging PFL player is in PAUSE. I'm sure (?) the TEST button used to work even if the File Tagging PFL player was in PAUSE, or is my memory faulty? ;)

Fixed in v.41.

5) The TEST button still has the 'loop' fault, i.e. clicking TEST plays a 'stutter loop' instead of just PLAYing from the cue point. Didn't you say that bug would be fixed in 2.1.40? ;D This bug makes it almost impossible to tag files.

Sorry, I cannot reproduce this here. Can you tell me the exact steps which lead to that stutter loop when pressing TEST?

Torben

4

On the subject of ‘lists’ of cue points: it is not just multiple Ramp points that I need, it is (at least!) multiple Cue In points. Many tracks (especially ‘album versions’ of Top 40 hits) have long intros which are not usually played, hence you need multiple Cue In points and probably—but not always—multiple Ramp points.

So THANK YOU!

[quote=“Torben”]Initially, all categories in which at least one cue point is set are expanded.
…
When you collapse a category in which a marker is set, it is marked with an asterisk.
…
I can add an “initially expand all categories” option if you like.[/quote]
Yes please: having to expand a header to add a point to a ‘new’ track is a total PITA if you are tagging 10 or more tracks (try it: it will drive you crazy!). Also, in the new dialog, the displayed cue point time values are very small, and in some grey colour instead of black, so they are VERY hard to read. I really really liked the old dialog which had large, clear, black times which were aligned directly above each other (i.e. without ‘headings’ in between them) and right beside the buttons instead of at the ‘wrong’ (left) side of the dialog. Could you not put the ‘time boxes’ beside the category headings, so there is no need to expand them? Or use a two-column display? Or at least align them to the RIGHT side instead of the left side?

I think that for now, I will use V2.1 only to automatically set Fade Out into an MMD, and I will use V2.0 for ALL other tagging because it’s so much clearer and easier to read (AND use!).

As I said above, that doesn’t address the multiple Cue In issue (or multiple Fade Out for that matter). I confess I have not tried this Ramp 1, Ramp 2, Ramp 3 thing: how do you choose the ‘active’ Ramp when playing a track?

Making a dialog more ‘colourful’ doesn’t make it more usable, especially when you make the key information in the dialog (the cue point times) much less readable (smaller, more ‘faint’) as a result. Making the colours optional is a good first step, but I really do have to sit 5cm from the screen to be able to read the values in the ‘time boxes.’

Oops! I got that wrong: it is clicking the - or + buttons while in PLAY which causes the stutter.
So the steps are:

  1. Click any cue point.
  2. Click PLAY (if the track is not already playing).
  3. Click SET.
  4. Click - or +. Stutter play begins and can only be ended by clicking PAUSE, TEST, or 0.

Is that intentional? If so, again I will have to use V2.0 to do my tagging because stutter play just gives me a headache and therefore definitely does not help me find cue points. :cry:

Sorry to be so negative about it, but IMHO you really have made the tagging dialog almost unusable. :frowning:

BFN
CAD

5

Well, to avoid an endless discussion - I could offer an alternative display as a regular listbox, with a reasonable large font. No fancy categories and buttons. What do you think? If I remember correctly, the screen reader software of the blind user Michal does not display the categories correctly, any so this might also solve his problems in using the new dialog.

I’m sorry that I had to change the PFL dialog anyway, but having introduced the new Ramp and Hook markers, the controls wouldn’t have fit in the old style. Only if we all bought a 21" TFT with Pivot :wink:

As I said above, that doesn't address the multiple Cue In issue (or multiple Fade Out for that matter). I confess I have not tried this Ramp 1, Ramp 2, Ramp 3 thing: how do you choose the 'active' Ramp when playing a track?

There is nothing like an active ramp, all of them are displayed at the same time. Just check it out :wink:

Making a dialog more 'colourful' doesn't make it more usable, especially when you make the key information in the dialog (the cue point times) much [i]less[/i] readable (smaller, more 'faint') as a result. Making the colours optional is a good first step, but I really do have to sit 5cm from the screen to be able to read the values in the 'time boxes.'
Oops! I got that wrong: it is clicking the - or + buttons while in PLAY which causes the stutter.

Oh, you mean THAT! Well, that’s the brilliant Cue Mode as found in e.g. Denon CD players :slight_smile: I thought everyone liked it, and I also thought it was optional, but it’s not. In v.41, you can switch it off (it’s a player GUI option then).

6

So long as I can see all the cue point times (in a BLACK font) without having to scroll or click anything, and so long as the times are right-aligned, and I still can have multiple (for example) Cue In points, yes that sounds good! I agree that the old dialog was much better than the new one.

Actually I do happen to use a 21" monitor on my home PC but it’s a CRT (with my eyesight, TFT/LCD = glare = headache :P, CRT = no glare = chilled-out Cad 8). I just pray that my CRT TV set never breaks down!).

{Note to self: don’t EVER use the CUE modes on ANY kit, esp. Denon CD players …}
So just to clarify: in v .41, there will be an option to stop the unintelligible chainsaw-like ‘help! the CD player is broken!!!’ noise when I click the - or + button? WONDERFUL! ;D Thank you! (Do people really like that so-called ‘brilliant’ feature? UGH!)

BFN
CAD (probably showing his age!)

7

I have uploaded a snapshot: http://www.mairlist.com/download/mAirList/v2.1/snapshot/

Just to ease your frustration :wink:

8

Cheers Torben: just downloaded it and will try it out later.

Thanks again!

PS: I think that Leith FM will be installing mAirList soon!!! I just need them to come back to me with a spec. for what they want it to look like…

BFN
CAD

9

The snapshot is great! THANK YOU!

Two minor issues/requests:

  1. Can you please make the font in the Simple Cue Dialog list bold?

  2. When using the ‘standard’ cue dialog with all categories expanded, the ‘list’ height is about 10–20px more than the container it is in, so it is still not possible to all of the Cue Point items at once. I realise that is is not so important because the Simple Cue dialog is now available (and I love that!) but I just thought I would mention it. :slight_smile:

As stated in my separate posting in Feature Requests, it would be even better if I had the option to see the full times (e.g. 0:07.24 instead of 0:07) in the list ;D, but the new Simple Cue dialog is wonderful—and thank you again!

BFN
CAD